Hi folks! If you want to see the scene play out in live action, feel free to watch the videos provided in the links below. NOTE: For whatever reason, the Royal Shakespeare Company decided to move the scene where Polonius is questioning Hamlet about what he's reading ("Words, words, words.") into the end of this scene. I have no idea why they did that; in my opinion, it destroys the tension. However, everything else about this production is pretty great, so we'll keep it up anyway:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nM_Oqd6Ers (Part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1geIIDdrV7c (Part 2: "To be" through "Get thee to a nunnery")
DISCUSSION INSTRUCTIONS:
Post a comment in response to this post, discussing the scene. I give you all total ownership in discovering meaning here. Pick a quote, come up with a discussion question, and have at at. Know that everything Shakespeare did in this scene is intentional, so think about what he's trying to reveal through it. Try to post two comments before class tomorrow. If discussion is occurring in a frenzy, and you want to just respond to other comments with both your posts, do so. But if discussion is wobbling along, use one of your comments to stoke the discussion with a question. We need practice with embedding quotes and staying tightly connected to the text, so reference the text in both of your comments. In other words, you should have a quote in there.
Also: use correct grammar and punctuation please.
You all are SMART and it is okay if you make mistakes, and there's no such thing as a dumb question, especially when you're dealing with tough language like this. So discuss boldly and recklessly! :)
As I was reading this scene, I didn't take it as Hamlet contemplating suicide at first. I thought it was a fearful Hamlet potentially getting cold feet as he began the famous aside. As Hamlet said, "Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer / The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, / or take arms against a sea of troubles / And by opposing end them. To die, to sleep... (III, I, 58-61)"
ReplyDeleteIn my mind, I interpreted this quote, especially the end when it said "And by opposing end them. To die..." He was saying something more along the lines of, "Is it better to ignore the fact that my uncle killed my dad and play it safe, or should I do something about it, and most likely die in the process?"
Based on the discussion today, I have a feeling that my take on it was wrong, but what do you guys think? Could this possibly be Hamlet deciding whether or not to take action, and then just giving up and contemplating suicide as he goes on?
Well Nathan, as Mrs. Myers said in class today, that this passage is dramatizes suicide as a romantic. I think I worded that correctly! But I feel as if it is him giving the audience an insight to what he is actually like. You know the debate that goes around weather or not Hamlet is mentally stable or not, I feel as if Shakespeare put this in here, with him being by himself to show that Hamlet is acting that way to make everyone think he is crazy to go with his plan to take everyone against him down. That is just my idea. But what do you guys think of that? Do you think Hamlet has actually gone crazy or is it all an act? What do you think the "To be or not to be" quote portrays him as? Just seeing all your views on the play!
ReplyDeleteI think his craziness is all just an act. I think at least Matthew, Jonathan, and Eric would agree with me too, because we read Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead. The way Hamlet is described in the book, as well as his behind the scenes actions that Rosencrantz and Guildenstern bring to life shows that he is cunning, clever, and always thinks ahead. Based on everything I have read in that book, I think his craziness is just an act - more like a strategy, so he can seem like he is almost helpless, when really, he is the one orchestrating everything that happens.
ReplyDeleteAnother thing I noticed as i read this scene was the way Hamlet treats Ophelia. One minute he is being rather nice to her saying things like "The fair Ophelia," and calling her "Nymph" (III, I, 90), and the next minute, he is insulting her like crazy, calling her two-faced, and saying that he never loved her, telling her to go to a nunnery, never get married, and even call her father stupid (III, I, 122-142). Why is he like this? Why is he getting along with Ophelia and saying nice things one second, and insulting her and completely destroying her self esteem the next? And also, why is she such a doormat??? Why can't she stand up for herself (or even think for herself), instead of just take it all the time?
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ReplyDeleteThough Hamlet is capable of putting together coherent thoughts, I still think he is a bit unstable. Is suicide something a completely stable young person thinks about as a legitimate option? He is even thinking of the different ways to go about it and basically tells himself, why bother dealing with all this when "he himself might his quietus make/ with a bare bodkin" (Act III. Scene I. 76-77). I feel like someone who is mentally stable is capable of seeing a more rational way to deal with hardship. Perhaps another reason he seems a bit crazy is that his levels of sanity vary from one end of the spectrum to another, which might be why there is so much debate about the topic. So I think he probably has some psychological problems. That's just my opinion on the topic, I'm interested to see everyone else's take on Hamlet's sanity.
ReplyDeleteHamlet's sanity is the question of the whole entire book. Is he playing coocoo or is he really just orchestrating the murder of his uncle and his benefactors? Personally, I think Hamlet is nuttier than squirrel poo. At first I thought he might be playing crazy, but after reading this entire monologue if his contemplation of suicide I think he has lost. I agree with Dani; someone rational would not contemplate suicide. A rational person would find something to cope with depression, but Hamlet somehow rationalizes that "To die, to sleep - No more - and by a sleep to say we end The heartache and the thousand natural shocks That flesh is heir to" (Act V. Scene I. 76-77). He rationalizes that death is an end to heartache and shocks. I guess my question is sleep is temporary and physical death is permanent, so how can Hamlet so easily compare the two? He must be insane!
ReplyDeleteI agree with Dani. At times, Hamlet seems to be very rational and sane, but if he is such, why then would he be contemplating suicide? A truly rational and sane person would think of ways that he could work around or through his problems, even with people he doesn't like. He would not take the easy way out, which is suicide. He would not wish to degrade himself in such a death.
ReplyDeleteAlso, the language and phraseology that Shakespeare utilizes in this scene show Hamlet as somewhat rational, buy also irrational, because he uses harsh words when describing people, such as "a proud man's contumely", which basically means a proud man's insolent abuse. However, when he is talking about death, instead of using the word "death" itself, he inserts the word "quietus", which means death, but has a softer feel in both diction and sound. He is romanticizing the concept of being dead instead of life. A rational man would look at everything around him and try to find the good in it, not try to find an easy way of avoiding it.
So I think that Hamlet is partially sane, but maybe not ENTIRELY there mentally. I don't know... What do you guys think?
Here's what I think. I think Hamlet is the equivalent of those women who want to be pregnant so bad that they start getting actual symptoms of pregnancy. Like, let's say hypothetically that he was totally sane before he started to act insane. He starts acting crazy with the intent of hurting people. Is that considered a paradox? Like, wouldn't that make him crazy? And if not, I think putting yourself in that sort of situation would eventually lead to insanity. Just the emotion and agony behind his crazy act leads me to believe that maybe it isn't an act anymore.
DeleteInteresting idea!
DeleteNathan my friend, Hamlet treats Ophelia like a jerk because Ophelia shut Hamlet down. She gave Hamlet back his letters that he wrote to her. Ophelia says, "My honored lord, you know right well you did, And with them words of so sweet breath composed AS made the things more rich. Their perfume lost, Take these again, for to the noble mind Rich gifts wax poor when givers prove unkind. There my Lord (She gives tokens)" (Act V. Scene I. 99-104). Ophelia gives back Hamlet's gifts and ends things with him. Hamlet then becomes angered and crazed and begins treating her like a jerk. Polonius and Ophelia both think that Hamlet is crazed do to his love for Ophelia, so why would they make it worse by making Ophelia refuse and give back Hamlet's gifts? To me this just seems so dirty. I thought everybody was trying to make him feel better, not suicidal and homicidal.
ReplyDeleteKing Claudius and Polonius, the more I read through the play, seem to have a very self-serving attitude in common. But are not trustworthy to their families: Claudius to his wife nor Hamlet, and Polonius to his very submissive daughter. Both the King and his right-hand man, in an attempt to discern the source of Hamlet's recent inexplicable behavior concur that as "lawful espials/ [we] will bestow ourselves that seeing, unseen, / may of their encounter frankly judge, / And gather by him, as he is behaved, / If't be th' affliction of his love or no" (III.i.32-37). Following their surreptitious eavesdropping of the conversation that passed between Hamlet and Ophelia, Polonius offers a similar assertion that would provide unsolicited answers at the cost of Hamlet's trust and privacy. First, he suggests that the Queen follow Hamlet so that he may "show his grief" then suggests that the Queen "be round with him; / and [he'll] be placed... in the ear/ of all their conference" (III.i.186-188).
ReplyDeleteBoth of them have no moral reservations whatsoever about "legal spying" or ascertaining answers and making judgments without Hamlet's knowing. Because of this similarity, I question their motivations, and where their loyalties will lie in the end. Is Claudius only interested in Hamlet's affliction to save his authority as the King? Was Polonius a part of the plot to kill Hamlet's father, and if so, does his interest in Hamlet come from a desire to truly help the King, or will his self-serving nature cause him to turn on Claudius the same way Claudius turned on his brother? At what cost will Polonius try to keep his daughter from Hamlet, and is he actually trying to be a good father, or prove himself to the King?
To comment on your assessment about the self-serving attitude and untrustworthiness to the men's families, I find that Claudius is the same to all people not himself. Beside his wife and Hamlet, he tries to use Rosencrantz and Guildenstern for his own purposes, as shown when he says, "Good gentlemen, give him a further edge/ And drive his purposes into these delights" (III.i.26-III.i.27). Regardless of whether or not the men desire to manipulate their friend, the King essentially forces them by use of his royal power. He also (infuriatingly, at least to me) uses Ophelia without remorse for his own gain without care for her emotions or desires. He calls her a "harlot" (III.i.52) for doing the very thing he requested of her, mainly because it calls his own guilt to mind.
DeleteThe king who was so quick to take power after his act of murder now feels entitled to use anyone and everyone to hide his sin. Everyone seems to be expendable, as long as his crime never comes to be known.
I love that you caught that "harlot" line from Claudius Hannah! I'm not positive that it's referring to Ophelia though (although it very possibly could). The line is an aside, which is important, because it's a window into how Claudius really feels. Polonius has just made the remark that an act of piety can "sugar o'er the devil himself." Basically: we can act pious and thereby disguise our evil doings. Claudius then remarks:
Delete(aside) Oh, ’tis too true!
How smart a lash that speech doth give my conscience!
The harlot’s cheek, beautied with plastering art,
Is not more ugly to the thing that helps it
Than is my deed to my most painted word.
O heavy burden!
Starting to see another side to Claudius, aren't we??
Because everyone else is touching on this issue, I'll hop on the bandwagon and call Hamlet's sanity into question. While I do think that his 'madness' is of the more Raskolnikov-ian kind: afflicted but still cunning, he does really come across as at war with himself during his famous soliloquy. One thing that I gleaned from class today was that his tone of voice and the way he was speaking out his internal dialogue mimicked something like a speech intended for an audience, yet he is alone and wrapped up in his own confusions. Perhaps he was only talking out loud to gain some sort of clarity, or maybe the sudden change of diction mimics his change of mentality.
ReplyDeleteAnyhow, because our group didn't get a chance to touch on our section of his soliloquy in class, I wanted to touch on a metaphor that I tried to put together. In his musings, Hamlet attests that "conscience makes cowards of us all, / And thus the native hue of resolution / Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought, / And enterprises of great pith and moment / With this regard turn awry" (III.I.84-89). He talks of his resolution to commit suicide polluted by his own conscience, and his debate whether or not to carry it out. But his attestation that the conscience makes men cowards implies that he thinks it would demonstrate weakness not to act on his state of depression and end his life. He speaks of the 'cast of thought' with words like "sicklied" and "pale", with a negative connotation. Although he does acknowledge that committing suicide would be a moment of importance and magnitude, he is frustrated that there is even a debate going on in his own mind. He speaks of his resolution as a "current turn awry" by the divergence of thought.
What do the rest of y'all make of this metaphor? Do you think that Hamlet wants to commit suicide to be with his father, or is it a matter of ego, trust issues, and just plain old sick of being depressed? And why the view that debating such a serious death as weak??
Great observations Mel!
DeleteI agree with what Dani commented about the unstable mental state Hamlet seems to be fading in and out of. I hate to say this, but this whole situation is a little reminiscent of Crime and Punishment-the mental instability that Raskolnikov repeatedly experienced and the passive "door mat"esque nature that Sonia followed. There are definitely moments when Hamlet appears to be fully aware of his actions and those of the people around him. Guildenstern even says that "crafty madness" keeps the two from finding out what exactly is distracting him (Act 3. Scene 1. 62). Like Nathan said, I believe that Hamlet IS cunningly trying to draw the truth out of his Claudius, his mother, and Polonius, but there are also moments when he becomes so worked up and flustered that he momentarily loses his mind and just goes off on rants, such as the exchange with Ophelia, and cannot express himself in any poetic manner, but is simply too angry or confused and doesn't know what to do.
ReplyDeleteThe way the Royal Shakespeare Company interprets his outburst seems to be out of desperation and confusion-he implores Ophelia to leave and "go thee to a nunnery" to escape the darkness of the palace and marry no one. (Act 3. Scene 1. 66). Or even if she does marry, to "marry a fool" because wise men, such as the men in the household, will only bring grief upon her. This reminds me of Daisy's quote in The Great Gatsby, "I hope she'll be a fool -- that's the best thing a girl can be in this world, a beautiful little fool" (Fitzgerald, The Great Gatsby). Both quotes carry the same idea: that the more you know or the more you can accomplish, the more pain is brought upon you. The best thing is to be ignorant of it all or incapable of such deceptiveness.
So, that leads me to my question: what do you think the sudden switch to prose signifies in Hamlet's speech to Ophelia? Is he sorry for her, or genuinely angry with her?
I hope to touch on the topic of Hamlet's suicidal thoughts in my next comment, but I am curious to hear what you guys picked up from the reading. Do you think Hamlet would commit suicide if he knew he wouldn't go to Hell? Is he still as vengeful as he was when he heard how his father passed? What are your thoughts on this?
I think that Hamlet is genuinely upset with Ophelia. He has been betrayed by two of his closest relatives and is unsure of who to trust. He may be testing her affections by deliberately confusing her but his erratic speech pattern, unnecessarily self-destructive behavior, and impassioned verbal attack indicate that there may be more going on with him emotionally and psychologically than merely grief and revenge plans.
DeleteTo respond to Hanna... The switch from the poetic verse of lovers to rapid fire prose is definitely significant, as you say. I don't think Hamlet is remotely sorry for her though; everything about it speaks to an intense outburst of anger and pain that even he was not expecting.
DeleteIndeed, here is this guy with these elaborate, methodical plots to feign insanity and entrap his uncle to confirm his suspicions and enact revenge, and he gets blindsided by the love of his life. It is clear that he wanted to use Ophelia and trick her into believing his madness by opening their conversation with “I humbly thank you; well well well” (III.i.94), the repeated “well” sounding slightly deranged and senseless. Even so, he was not expecting her to essentially dump him at this very moment. For a man who feels like he lost everything in his father's death and his mother's remarriage, relinquishing one more relationship is more than he can bear. Yep, he’s wounded, he’s in shock, and he wants to fight back to defend himself and protect his emotions. I feel really bad for him, it’s no wonder he’s contemplating death.
I do think his vengeful desire is just as passionate as ever; even though he considers suicide, he would not be able to commit to that before fulfilling his revenge. His bubbling hatred for Claudius is an all too present force that cannot be ignored. Even the somewhat optimistic king senses this intensity in Hamlet, saying that “what he spake, though it lacked form a little / Was not like madness. There’s something in his soul / O’er which his melancholy sits on brood, / And I do doubt the hatch and the disclose / Will be some danger” (III.i.166-170). Death is not an option; at least, not yet.
Great observations of that last bit from Claudius, Madison. We've moved quite a ways from his earlier assessment of Hamlet as "unmanly" from Act 1!
DeleteIn commenting on Hanna's questions, I think that Hamlet's switching to prose signifies that he is done. He is done with everything including Ophelia. I think he was trying to be gentle with her, but the moment he switched to prose signified that he was just done with her and her blandness. I don't think that Hamlet is angry with her in particular because he seems to be more occupied with everything else and Ophelia is just another person he has to deal with and she isn't giving him much to work with. When he starts to talk in long prose he says "Ay, truly, for the power of beauty will sooner transform honesty from what it is to a bawd than the force of honesty can translate beauty into his likeness. This was sometime a paradox, but now the time gives it proof. I did love you once" (III.i.112-116). I think that Hamlet is just annoyed here with her lame one sentence answers and questions and he just wants to get some bit of a rise out of her by saying these things. Also, when Hamlet starts yelling at her about going to the nunnery, I think that was just his breaking point with everything and he just needs to yell at someone.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I don't understand why Hamlet is depicted as alone during his speech because it says Ophelia is pretending to read a book just about when it starts. I think Ophelia was listening to the speech. I think that maybe she decided to officially break things off because of the speech. I mean she is such a daddy's girl and I am sure she probably feels like her dad was right about everything and that she shouldn't be with Hamlet. Being with someone suicidal is taxing and Ophelia doesn't seem like she could deal with that.
You're picking up on natural, emotional human responses Bryce-- some psychological analysis here! There's a line in this play where Hamlet says that it's the theater's job to "hold the mirror up to nature," or something along those lines. Basically: writers should show humanity what it really is. Sounds like you think Hamlet's reactions are legitimate and understandable!
DeleteSomething that I would like to look at is Polonius. I am starting to think that Polonius isn't in on the murder of Senor King Hamlet because of his quote, "But yet do I believe / The origin and commencement of his grief / Sprung from neglected love" (III.i.179-182). He seems too occupied by the idea that Hamlet is grieving for Ophelia. I just feel as though Polonius would be very, "Oh my goodness, he's grieving for his father. What if he finds out I helped kill him?" He just seems like the kind of man who obsesses over things which I am basing on this quote and his past ideas of Ophelia being the cause for his madness.
ReplyDeleteI think this goes along with what Melanie was saying about Polonius being self-serving. He is only concerned about things in relation to his family. He is like the father that wants to look like a perfect family, so I don't think he would even care about Senior King Hamlet.
Ok, as Melanie said, I will jump on this bandwagon too. So personally, I've dealt with suicide in the past. Just gonna be real. It doesn't mean that you're crazy though. I believe that he is just insanely depressed. The man lost his father, lost his crown, lost his family pretty much, and gained a new duncle. Didn't is say before that Hamlet wasn't allowed to see Ophelia also? I think it said something along those lines... So then also you can add to his list, that he lost his love. It seems like it would be a hard life. Also, people were saying how smart he is, Nathan said that I believe when he stated how they read the book "Rozencrants and Guilderstein" or whatever. Yes! I totally agree that Hamlet is a smart little cookie! I keep feeling like he's in a hidden room listening to everyone and just snickering to himself. I can't wait to see how his "father" reacts to the play performance later on.
ReplyDeleteSo I want to touch on Hanna's question. I'm not entirely sure yet... Hamlet is a very confusing dude because one minute he is expressing his true feelings-- "To be or not to be, that is the question" (Act 3.1), the next minute he is telling lies so that he can trick everyone and seek revenge for his father. Because of this, it makes it hard to know if he is entire honest with his feelings, OR if he knows that people are listening, and he wants to switch up the game. It all really depends on how you take it. I want to take it as him actually being mad. If I was him, and the women i cared for came up to me and was like "here take back these letters you gave me, they don't smell pretty anymore, and I just don't need them anymore, please take them back" I would be a little peeved too. Also, he was just contemplating suicide, like, way to catch him at a bad time Ophelia!
That leads me to MY question, we started to discuss this in class, but what are your guy's opinions on Ophelia in this scene? We are given her dialogue, but not the way in which she should express it. When you were initially reading, what did you think the tone was? And once you actually found out what it meant (haha) what did you interpret her tone as? :)
Thanks for the transparency Leyla-- you're right to point out that people contemplating suicide aren't necessarily crazy; just hurting badly and in need of help, hope, and support.
DeleteReally great Leyla!! Thank you for your honestly here! Know that you are loved!! To follow up on your question about Ophelia and her tone, I think she might be genuinely freaked out by Hamlet. I mean, to start with, yes, she comes in offering him tokens and acting as though nothing were wrong between the two, when she knows full well that she probably hurt Hamlet deeply by sending the letters back to him. But as the scene progresses, and Hamlet becomes more and more... "possessed" (for lack of a better description) I felt Ophelia becoming frightened and removed, as though she would nothing better in the world than to escape him. The whole time Hamlet is talking (or yelling?) to her from page 65-67, she inserts comments such as "O, help him, you sweet heavens!" and "Heavenly powers, restore him!". Now, I could be completely wrong as to that being her talking about him, as I do not have compete brain capacity right now, but I took that as her calling upon heaven for Hamlet to be "healed", brought back to his old self, the self that was not crazy in the slightest. I don't know... That's how I saw it... Its probably completely wrong haha
DeleteYour observations make me think Tori... Hamlet mentions Ophelia's prayers, and in both of those exclamations, she seems to be praying. Could we infer that Ophelia has a more deeply rooted sense of morality than we perhaps have given her credit for? Maybe she does indeed, in a sense, represent a piece of Hamlet's conscience!
DeleteIn response to Mariah, I think Hamlet is going crazy. Initially, I thought it was just an act to hide the fact that he's plotting against his uncle, but his debating of suicide and the whole deal with Ophelia really made me reconsider things. The fact that he questions suicide doesn't necessarily mean he's insane; like Dani said, that could just be a sign of mental instability. But then there's Hamlet's spiel with Ophelia, where he says to her, "I did love you once" (III.I.116) and then less than ten lines later, "I loved you not" (III.I.116).
ReplyDeleteSo, we know Claudius and Polonius are in on this conversation to see if Hamlet's madness stems from his love from Ophelia. Again, I just assumed that he was acting mad because of the whole uncle thing and obviously not because of Ophelia, but then he said he loved her and then that he never loved her and it just doesn't make any sense. Not only that, but what's his motivation for saying this? I think if he's truly in love with her, what he's saying doesn't add up and certainly isn't helping him in that department and it's definitely not getting him off the hook with Claudius. Yeah, Hamlet said he was going to act crazy but there’s so much emotion and not much sense behind what he says to Ophelia so this sort of leads me to believe other things? Like, maybe if he isn’t crazy now, he’s beginning to go crazy? What do you guys think?
About Ophelia, I was surprised that she broke up with him, cause I definitely thought it would be the other way around considering her submissive behavior throughout the earlier scenes. However, throughout breaking up with him I felt like she was still being so delicate with the way she handled things calling him "my honored lord" (Act III. Scene I. 99) and I also sensed a bit of sympathy on Ophelia's part, and it seemed like she genuinely felt sorry for him. That was my take on things.
ReplyDeleteWell, I feel like she didn't break up with him out of her own will. Like, maybe that was a part of her fathers plan? I don't really know, so do NOT quote me on that Daneth. But yes, I understand you, I felt so bad for her throughout all of this. She is being forced to do everything that everyone tells her, no questions asked. I was saddened when Hamlet started stating "I did love you once" and the next "I loved you not" and then a little later he kept reiterating the "Go thy ways to a nunnery" (Act 3.1). He seemed so harsh to her, the women that he loved. I feel bad for both of them, they're both being controlled by their parents, but at least on Ophelia's side, her father now seems to genuinely care about her I guess. Poor all of them. At least they won't have to suffer that much longer.
DeleteSee I told you guys that Ophelia knows what she wants! Her dads pretty much raised her since she doesn't have a mom and so she owes him her respect but she knows what she wants! So I feel like she broke up with him. Honestly, if I were her and my boyfriend went all crazy on me I'd be like "Peace out! There are better fish in the sea that will treat me right. I do not deserve to be disrespected by you after all I have put up with!". That's just my thinking but I got really ticked off with his bipolar attitude. One second he says he loves her, then he denies it and repeats several times that she should go to a nunnery (Act 3.1). I feel like Ophelia wants to know what happened to him, but is put in an awkward predicament. At the end of Scene 3 act 1 the kind says "Madness in great ones must not unwatched go". I am somewhat confused by what he is thinking, but do you think that the king is catching onto Hamlet knowing something?
DeleteOne thing I know for fact that Claudius is planing something for Hamlet. To explain the quote "Madness in great ones must not unwatched go." This is the idea that great people must be observed, and if they are found to be mad action must be taken. As Madison said in a later post, all the people love him. He is extremely popular with the peasants, and is able to woe the women. Because he is in such high standings with the populous Claudius is saying he and Polonius need to observer Hamlet's actions.
DeleteNow I wanted to give my own input on Ophelia. Like the video portrays Ophelia as a shriveling mess I took it as the same way. Here we have this woman. She has been raised her whole life in a wealthy home. She is constantly guided by her father and brother, making decisions on what they tell her to do. I agree with you that she feels obligated to her father because, for all we know, she did not have a mother growing up. I do not think she knows what she wants. In my mind she loves Hamlet, so why should she return all of his letters if she loved him. This is a woman blindly following her orders.
Now onto Hamlet's acting. You said he is bipolar, I believe this to be false. Like Ophelia, Hamlet was raised where he never faced problems. This rejection by Ophelia is probably one of the first real hardships he has encountered. In addition, coming from a boy's perspective, if I felt a relationship was going well but then it was suddenly cut off. I would also be very angry. Before this scene we are given no indication that Ophelia will break off from Hamlet, so he had no knowledge also. I think we can all agree that if our date suddenly broke up with us, we would be spewing hate fire.
So some questions for you Mariah or anyone that wants to defend her. Is what Ophelia wants too obey every command her father tells her? They say that love is blind, so does Ophelia truly love Hamlet if, by what Mariah says, she recognizes his madness?
Finally, what has Ophelia put up with? So far all we have seen is a boyfriend who seems to genuinely care for her, minus the breaking into her room thing. She hasn't seen him mad, for he is only mad when by himself. And honestly if Ophelia honestly cared for Hamlet one thing would not have set her off.
I've always been so baffled by the Ophelia hate that always seems to pop up in discussions about Hamlet. People say things along the lines of "Ophelia deserves what she gets because she led Hamlet on!" or the like, but I don't see that at all. From what I gather, the king is using her to get to Hamlet, which means she really has no choice in the matter. If it were just her father, maybe she would rebel, but since the king is the one making the plan, how could she refuse? The way I interpret the scene, she is trying to be as polite as possible to Hamlet so as to look the part for the king and her father without hurting Hamlet too much in the process, not being haughty and short with him as some people apparently interpret it. She calls him "my lord" (III.i.91; III.i.94; III.i.98; III.i.103; III.i.105) as per the necessary deference to a prince, but nothing more that would imply that she's trying to toy with him. She could easily have used a pet name of sorts if she wanted to hurt him more by mocking him with it. He calls her a "nymph" (III.i.90), showing right before this exchange takes place that the two did not always use formal names with each other, but also terms of affection and endearment. She seems to me through all of this to be trying to let Hamlet down as easily as she possibly can without arousing suspicion or anger in her father or the king who are forcing her to do this.
DeleteGreat points Hannah!
DeleteMatthew-- great comments about the "Madness in great ones must not unwatched go." Question though-- you said that "She hasn't seen him mad, for he is only mad when by himself." I would contest that. When does Hamlet appear to be most crazy? I would argue it's when other people ARE with him; his lucid moments seem to more reliably occur when he's alone.
DeleteIn response to Leyla, again, I agree with Dani. I feel like Ophelia acted so composed when Hamlet was pretty much losing his marbles; a little too composed for comfort. Given the circumstances, she can't necessarily lose her mind and go crazy on Hamlet. Hamlet says he used to love her, to which she replies, "Indeed, my lord, you made me believe so" (III.I.117). He then tells her he loved her not to which she responds, "I was the more deceived" (III.I.121). Like, she just seems totally, completely fine. Life is a picnic. Obviously, there's probably a lot going on in her head that we don't get to see (yet) and I'm sure her thoughts would justify the way she's acting but I think if she doesn't erupt soon, she's gonna end up hurting herself later. What do you guys think is up? Is it just Ophelia being Ophelia?
ReplyDeleteWell, if you watch the video that Myers posted, Ophelia is portrayed as crying and stuff. She stays on the ground and cries during her "O, what a noble mind is here o'erthrown! / The courtier's, soldier's, scholar's, eye, tongue, sword, / Th' expectancy and rose of the fair state / The glass of fashion and the mold form, / Th' observed of all observers, quite, quite down!" (Act 3.1 153- 157). During the scene, and this is how I envisioned it, she is weeping during the "Indeed my lord, you made me believe so." "I was the more deceived" part. It all really depends on how you take it i suppose. I feel that this truly hurt her, seeing the person that she cared about, hurting so much, especially because of something she did, whether or not she actually believed the words he was saying or if she knew that it was just meaningless words because he was angry. That is how I interpret it.
DeleteShe does hurt herself later. SPOILERRRRRRR
...Thanks for saying spoiler after u actually say the spoiler...
Deletejust sayin. ;)
From my own way of interpretation, I did not think she was entirely upset! But thank you Leyla, because I have not watched that video yet and that provides another way of looking at the scene with Ophelia. After watching the video myself to get somewhat of a better view, I re-read that scene and realized that it could easily sound as though Ophelia was quite hysterical. With only Ophelia’s lines to go off of, I went directly to syntax to completely analyze what she was saying. In doing this, I actually came to find a more hysterical and upset tone and effect in this scene with Ophelia. But the reason I was originally deceived was when Hamlet first said, “I loved you not” (Act 3, Scene 1, Line 120). Ophelia’s response was just a simple, declarative statement, “I was the more deceived” (Act 3, Scene 1, Line 121). Usually, when you are turned down that harsh by a guy, a girl would freak and immediately start stuttering in her speech. But she says her lines straightforward. Later in the dialogue between Ophelia and Hamlet is where I could see her part of hysteria. She starts exclaiming, “O, help him, you sweet heavens!” (Act 3, Scene 1, Line 135) and later, “And I, of ladies most deject and wretched, [that] sucked the honey of his music vows… woe is me…” (Act 3, Scene 1, Line 158-163). With exclamation points and commas after each section of words, shows pain and misery in all the words she is saying. I hurt for her as well Leyla! Being dejected and pushed away is not something many girls want to have happen to them. Truthfully, I think she went from being able to stand the pain, to complete hysteria mode.
DeleteThank you for the spoiler alert as well! (;
This is looking great you all. I'm impressed and excited. Keep it up!
ReplyDeleteIn class, Mrs. Myers brought up that the little soliloquy Ophelia gives at the end of Hamlet’s harsh mudslinging gives us some of the only insight into Hamlet’s past throughout the entire play. I didn’t read too much into this the first time around, so I thought I’d give it a go and see what I could find.
ReplyDeleteShe begins with how Hamlet used to have “The courtier’s, soldier’s, scholar’s, eye, tongue, sword, / Th’ expectancy and rose of the fair state, / The glass of fashion and the mold of form, / Th’ observed of all observers, quite, quite, down!” (III.i.154-156). So, Hamlet was a rather famous guy. Sure, he was the prince and should have been known throughout the country regardless, but to be so greatly admire and imitated demonstrates how truly honorable a man Hamlet was. He was witty, he was strong, he was graceful. All the women loved him and “sucked the honey of his music vows” (III.i.159). This all contrasts so sharply with the man he is now; he is consumed by depression and vengeance. The words that come out of his mouth are ugly and sporadic. Back then, though, people wanted to hear what he had to say; he certainly wasn’t an obnoxious bit of royalty with an abrasive sense of entitlement.
So this makes me wonder, why didn’t the people of Denmark react to Hamlet’s right to the throne being taken away by Claudius? I mean, there were absolutely no repercussions or resistance made by anyone against Claudius, and I find that rather strange. They had so much respect for Hamlet... Oh, I don’t know. Perhaps this isn’t the most poignant question of the entire play, but it has me intrigued nonetheless. So, is there any significance in the distinctive lack of pushback against Claudius? Is there anything else specifically pointed or revealing about Hamlet’s character and how he’s changed in lines 153-164 of Act 3, scene 1?
Pay especially close attention to Claudius' lines in the scenes to come Madison... We get a better idea of how Denmark is reacting to him being on the thone, which will help clarify your question-- it's pretty interesting! Great job looking at this passage-- I'm glad you gave it a second look.
DeleteGreat job guys!! I love the analysis of Hamlet's speech so far. I think it is time to leave behind the shredded remains of Hamlet's dialogue and move on to new grounds. What I wanted to focus on is later when Claudius and Polonius reenter. In the exchange both of the present a different views on Hamlet's madness. Claudius states the "Love! his affections do not that way tend;" but instead "There's something in his soul" (Act III. I). This is dramatic irony as we know Hamlet's madness is spurred on by the revelation from his dead father. Polonius follows up saying, "I believe the origin and commencement of his grief sprung from neglected love" (Act III. I). Yet again we see Polonius sticking to what he knows. He seems to be stuck on the idea that the cause of Hamlet's madness is born from Ophelia's rejection. So here are my questions. Is Claudius finally having an incredible insight into his son's/nephew's inner turmoil, or is he just blindly throwing around theories? Why is Polonius so stuck on the idea that it was his doing that Hamlet is mad? Finally, what do you think when Polonius says "To England send him [Hamlet]" (Act III. I)? Base your answer for the final question off of what we know from previous commentary in the scene. (Hint I know the ending, so I know that in this scene there is a reason given to send Hamlet to England.) Have fun :)
ReplyDeleteSome of you have pointed out that, the fact that Polonius seems so convinced that Hamlet's wildness is due to Ophelia, he must therefore be oblivious of the fact that Claudius killed King Hamlet. It's an astute observation! Thanks for taking the conversation into new territory Matthew. :)
DeleteI'm jumping into the conversation a bit late so I'm going to through my opinion out there and if no one responds by tomorrow morning I'll message back with the opposite opinion and talk to myself like a normal only child does.
ReplyDeleteFor me it seems important to define "madness". The basic google definition is "being in a state of severe mental illness," so is Hamlet mentally ill? I suppose one might test this by observing his socially neutral actions or those done by himself. Take his soliloquy for example: the man is simply weighing the consequences of life or death. If anything, he's an extremely pensive man, a philosopher. Just because he considers the option of suicide, that does not make him illogical. Now to act upon these thoughts is a completely different matter, whether that means he would harm himself daily or commit the act of suicide itself. Even still, is it illogical to desire an end to such terrible pain? "To be, or not to be" in Act III, scene 1 is famous not because it contemplates suicide. I've already seen this rendition of Hamlet, and every individual has grown up hearing the phrase, but I didn't realize it was his way of thinking through the decision to take his own life. I simply understood the phrase to have significant complexity. "To be, or not to be" is so incredibly famous because it's DEEP, perhaps the most packed question in the universe, from which all other questions, answer, actions, and thoughts come. Life or death - there is no alternative, and by asking the question Hamlet does not demonstrate madness; he shows quite the opposite! When I get home, the only thing I wonder is whether I should take a nap immediately or procrastinate on homework, have a snack, and then take a nap. Hamlet's asking the BIG questions, and what is more, he is asking them in a terribly heightened emotional state of distress, but not madness. If there's no such thing as stupid questions, then a philosophical man like Hamlet cannot be judged by his subject matter.
I will save you from talking to yourself like an only child this time. I definitely agree with what you have to say, and it corresponds to Leyla's comment as well. You don't have to be insane to contemplate the consequences of taking your own life and what weight it holds in the afterlife. I mean, I have often thought about it and I'd like to say I'm not mad. But I also want to propose that even though the dictionary denotation of the word "madness" is "being in a state of sever mental illness", I feel as though the cultural connotations have changed this definition. It could be more accurately described as "a crazed state of mind" or "having impaired judgement" due to anything ranging from current events/experiences to emotional mood swings. I feel like if we really look into ourselves, we have all experience these thoughts and feelings at some point in our lives. Maybe it's just a part of adolescent hormones? Who knows?
DeleteHowever, during class today, my group actually thought Hamlet was over reacting a little bit. I mean it's devastating to find out that your uncle killed your father and took the throne as well as your mother, but wouldn't you then want to seek revenge rather than kill yourself? What would suicide accomplish in that light? I personally don't really agree with this view that Hamlet is just spoiled and stuck up so much so that at the first sign of trial, he wants an out. I think he has suffered much and is simply considering all options.
My favorite quote from his "To be or not to be" soliloquy is the line "To sleep, perchance to dream" (III. I. 64). This line convinces me that Hamlet just wants to be liberated from all the tragedies occurring around him, as if there is hope and peace in death. However, his pleasant thoughts are quickly deterred by the uncertain consequences of suicide, but there is no damage in thinking about it, right?
This is poignant analysis Keaton. I agree that I don’t think Hamlet is, in fact, insane. Granted, he’s not the most collected fellow ever, but he definitely has some method to his madness. Let’s not forget why Hamlet is the way he is in the first place: betrayal. His uncle stabbed him figuratively in the back by killing his father and marrying his mother, whom also betrayed him. Then there’s Ophelia, whose equally if not more wishy-washy than Hamlet himself. Her games would cause any man to go crazy. Stack this on top of Hamlets’ existing problems, and you’ve got a fairly troubled young lad.
DeleteThe fact that Hamlet manages to talk himself out of suicide, conveyed in the line “with this regard their currents turn awry” from 3.1, shows incredible strength and clarity of mind that not even people with lesser problems today can usually conjure up. His ability to keep some poise in the situation truly shows that Hamlet is not, in fact, crazy, but simply tormented by all the injustice that seems to be ensconcing him all at once.
"Ensconcing"-- word choice +!
DeleteSo with all of the opinions on Hamlet's sanity and how he is unstable, I wonder if anybody is considering what options Hamlet DOES have. Personally, I cannot give accurate advice as to what Hamlet ought to have done differently or how he should have thought a certain way. His contemplation of "whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against a sea of troubles" shows truly the immensity of his situation. I have one question to ask you guys: how would you cope in this situation? Just try walking in Hamlet's shoes. If your beloved uncle crushed your trust be marrying your widowed mother, only for you to find out that he was also the one that murdered your dad, and meanwhile the girl that you have a major crush on is toying with your head, would you guys be able to cope with it in extremely rational fashion? It seems over-the-top, and it is, so why are people with far lesser problems committing suicide every day? I don't think Hamlet is irrational at all; in fact, this seems the most rationalized response for anybody in this given situation.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't agree more Jon. We can sit here and say Hamlet's overreacting and should just get ahold of himself, but until we see our dead, ghostly dad come before us, tell us our uncle killed him, and then deal with our mother sleeping with her brother-in-law, we CANNOT understand what Hamlet is going through emotionally. Take into account "th' oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely. The pangs of disprized love, the law's delay, the insolence of office, and the spurns that patient merit of th' unworthy takes" (Act III, Scene 1) and we see plenty of reason for his madness. I might go as far as to call Hamlet the wisest man in the play, even over Polonius, the king's advisor. Under all of this stress, he's still capable of formulating a conniving plan to expose Claudius as the killer by using the traveling players. Hamlet deserves much more credit than we give him. If not for the magic of story making, I'd find it a miracle that he doesn't lash out immediately and murder his uncle without delay. In addition, the entire situation is further complicated by the condition of the family's royalty, being the highest authority in the land. If you discovered that your uncle murdered your father, what would you do first? Call the police of course, but the police are on your uncle's side in this case. You therefore are forced to either act rashly (certainly the easier option) and take the law into your own hands, or you must contain yourself and wait, and scheme, which is what Hamlet does. So in my opinion, Hamlet demonstrates more control and wit than any other character in the play.
ReplyDelete